Patricia Pinheiro: Creativity, Identity & Mental Health for musicians

00:00:08: Hello and welcome to the Inner Take podcast.

00:00:11: My name is Ramon Gardela, I'm your host.

00:00:14: The Inner Take is a podcast for musicians A space to talk about what happens inside us when we make music... ...the thoughts & feelings that shape how we play!

00:00:36: So if you are a musician, stay right there.

00:00:39: Welcome to the inner take!

00:00:41: Let's begin... Hello everybody!

00:00:54: inner tech podcast.

00:00:56: Today I'm not alone and i am joined by Patricia Pinheiro, she's an oboe player from Portugal currently based in Germany but playing the oboe is only one of many things that she does.

00:01:07: She has been involved with several ensembles and orchestras.

00:01:15: She's also the artistic director of a project in Portugal called A Mesa, which concerns and connects experimental music with rural communities.

00:01:25: How cool is that?

00:01:26: I want to hear more about her and her work so let's see what she has to tell us!

00:01:37: Hello Patricia welcome to The Inner Tech Podcast.

00:01:40: thank you for being here.

00:01:41: how are doing today?

00:01:42: Hi Thank You For Having Me Here.

00:01:45: i'm Doing Great tired from a symphonic week but I'm really excited to talk with you and you?

00:01:52: Always, always very busy.

00:01:53: Yeah i'm fine.

00:01:54: thank you also doing an orchestra project this week.

00:01:58: And Patricia your story.

00:02:02: when I read the things you sent me Your Story With Music is so powerful!

00:02:08: It's not only with music But your life stories are so powerful And how music is involved with your life and the decisions you made.

00:02:19: It's really a great story, How did you start with music?

00:02:27: Because I know that this was not the thing we wanted to do, but it happened somehow.

00:02:33: Can you tell us a little bit more about it?

00:02:35: Yes!

00:02:35: So...I think It's quite funny because when i say also writing for you.. ...I was like having an overview of my last twenty-eight years and I was also like, wow okay there's so many different phases.

00:02:54: And to the opposite of a lot of musicians i didn't grow in a family with musicians... I had an uncle that was a musician but he died before I was born So I never met him But I got one his instruments.

00:03:13: Like I lived in a small town next to the scene, Portugal.

00:03:17: And my mom when i was about to do five years she had to change her job.

00:03:23: so she went to this new city and she was like trying to find a school, to enroll me.

00:03:29: And in this kind of search all the schools were telling her no you know?

00:03:34: Like if that line is over then it's over.

00:03:37: You have to enroll here at private school.

00:03:39: My mom really stubborn so I will continue searching.

00:03:44: Then she went through this conservatory.

00:03:47: She asked can i enrol my kid?

00:03:50: and they laughed, then said you know actually today is the last day but she has to do an audition.

00:03:56: And my mom was like no worry!

00:03:58: She will do

00:03:58: it!".

00:04:00: But did she prepare at all?

00:04:03: No...but she'll find a way!

00:04:06: I think this is probably a good resume of how life was about doing things in a way that people were not expecting.

00:04:16: So then my mom tried to understand what these auditions are about and they was just listening, like for kids.

00:04:25: but most of the kids who prepared already more than one year because it's a public school so all music like studies were free, and so the demand was really high.

00:04:37: There's about three hundred kids applying to this same

00:04:41: year.".

00:04:42: And my mom said no she would do it you know?

00:04:44: She always had a thing for music.

00:04:47: So she took me there.

00:04:49: in truth that I passed the audition.

00:04:52: And then my mom was like, okay I find oboe in Portuguese oboe.

00:04:58: she found a word very funny but he didn't really knew what oboé was.

00:05:03: so just put me as first choice and It was the instrument to put also piano and violin, but they put me in oboe.

00:05:12: Because there were not a lot of kids interested in obo!

00:05:16: So I remember having this call that my mom received saying that i entered And she's telling me...I remembered it as kind of like a confusion moment because She couldnt really explain what am going on with her.

00:05:30: The truth is that I started the conservatorium And this is like where the story started being not so positive, let's say.

00:05:39: So I had... The conservatism was twelve years in Portugal and on my first year because i was still very small I played the block flute you know?

00:05:50: Like the original flutes to put it that way.

00:05:55: On second year I started with his teacher who was a very renowned person in Portugal And the truth is that he was not able in any way to deal with kids and there already a big history of, let's say power abuse.

00:06:17: I think because i always had very strong personality... ...I was also bringing the worst from him Because I was fighting it.

00:06:27: Let´s say this was short time until the relationship with him start being very negative even as a kid.

00:06:36: So we started by, for example you know We have these small cups of water where we put the reeds and it started like by destroying my first reeds or picking the water from the cups And putting on me.

00:06:51: he would yeah like verbal abuse to students.

00:06:56: It was a very complicated situation because He was a very clever person and the person that knew how to circulate all those structures.

00:07:10: And so every time we would do a complaint, the complain would disappear.

00:07:15: in this system A lot of years passed and the relationship started getting worse, because I was also growing.

00:07:24: So i start defending myself from him verbally defend my self saying that things were wrong And the text starts being more personal not just a superficial thing.

00:07:39: let's say it is never superficial.

00:07:41: but lets put on these terms the way I grew up, or me being in a single mom household.

00:07:53: All of these kinds of comments start to be part my daily basis and i think this was like where life started showing also other things...I entered at that time a philharmonic band

00:08:11: but let's get it clear for us too.

00:08:15: You started in a conservatoire without knowing or wanting it.

00:08:21: So your mother says, she will go into do it and at this time I would say great confidence for her mom!

00:08:30: This is like amazing what she did.

00:08:33: so then you passed the exam, you start to play in the oboe... ...and your first teacher was this guy You're telling me

00:08:40: so the first year was actually with a woman teacher that introduced made up lock flip because I was still very young But he was the main teachers.

00:08:49: So as soon as I could start to do oboe, I started having lessons within.

00:08:53: but of course in the first years is a very like.

00:08:58: So we don't really have individual Lessons as Like from when you are eleven twelve?

00:09:03: We'll have like group lessons.

00:09:05: So all of these things were being a bit hidden, because of course as children you don't really tell everything to your parents and my mom didn't have any clue about what was happening.

00:09:19: And as kids we are just going through it.

00:09:21: You take things as a joke... ...you think that this is the normal.

00:09:26: Then when I start growing, eleven or twelve years old i started understanding he wasn't correct from him.

00:09:35: A big fight, let's say started from my mom side with the school.

00:09:40: From other parents.

00:09:42: but as I said he was kind of a powerful person and He was always trying to control the wave

00:09:50: And you were like eleven twelve or something?

00:09:53: Yes

00:09:55: So we were a child and you know this story for me because I know all the things that play, how to do it.

00:10:01: The passion is what you have in your life.

00:10:08: And then i quit music and made something else.

00:10:10: Because with such kick-off at first It's unbelievable get it over and make the career you're making now, on all of things they are making.

00:10:22: So tell us more about how were your next steps?

00:10:27: Yeah, so it's quite funny that you say this because I was sending a message to my friend these last days and by accident i went for conversation in the year of two thousand twelve.

00:10:39: So around when I was fourteen or fifteen years old... ...I was talking about this teacher who said he just wanted me to hug my small teenager self!

00:10:48: Because now we could read all those things from the optics on my grown-up.

00:10:53: And they were like wow how did not give up?

00:10:57: And I think here was like when things started changing.

00:11:00: Like, When i was around twelve thirteen... ...I have this conductor from the orchestra of a school that told me oh you know what?

00:11:08: It would be very positive if we had another musical experience outside of school.

00:11:14: So he took me to the Philharmonic band.

00:11:16: Well it's kind of windband orchestra and.. ..i start going every week.

00:11:22: so.... That really changed my life the plots because I start really having fun and of course, i was very insecure.

00:11:33: of the things that I was going through with my teacher.

00:11:39: But, also start seeing like oh actually this can be fun you know?

00:11:42: Like Philharmonic bands in Portugal bring people with eighty years old to kids who are starting learning music.

00:11:49: and it's all about community.

00:11:51: It is all about being together for music.

00:11:54: And i think those were first steps bringing me a bit light on what they could do if we get out.

00:12:03: And from this situation, basically I... In trying to really resume it.

00:12:10: I had a tumor when i was fifteen and his tumor was in my ear.

00:12:17: So also like with the teacher so he didn't believe that I'm sick but its quite funny.

00:12:26: For an year I missed classes And when it was like the moment of deciding if I was getting operated or no, I asked my mom to not be operated because this tumor was very close to my nerves in my face.

00:12:42: So it would mean for sure that I will never play again.

00:12:46: and i think it was on that moment where really start understanding music had a big role.

00:12:52: anyway The funny part is that the tumor disappeared by itself and allowed me to finish my music course.

00:13:03: And so it was like, I find when I really see things from outside is a lot of bad coincidence together with a lot amazing coincidences you know?

00:13:13: It's every time there are no turnaround.

00:13:16: somehow the situation changes for best interests.

00:13:21: So then basically i entered university Again, like really low self-esteem for Opal.

00:13:30: I really think that you know... ...I was never doing it and my first teacher there.

00:13:35: he really started building this confidence back.

00:13:38: He's really starting like Patrice You.

00:13:40: now.

00:13:40: maybe This is not just a thing that to do your bachelor And you end up here.

00:13:45: Maybe if you change your mindset things will start changing again.

00:13:52: by kind of a happy accident, I saved my first money together with today's partner and we came to Berlin.

00:14:04: And when we come to Berlin it was like oh my god you know?

00:14:07: i want to be here!

00:14:08: Like so many things happening in Germany... You can be wherever you are.

00:14:14: this freedom.

00:14:16: For me then is the light was like on and I was like you know maybe if i get out of Portugal,I can reveal this sense of identity.

00:14:26: Of course it was not as clear with these words as is now but I had this feeling.

00:14:32: okay you know any?

00:14:33: what do Ifi try?

00:14:35: And at the time my dream markers for let's say It Was Essie Chironfunks.

00:14:42: So I was Like Okay You Know!

00:14:44: I will apply to Frankfurt without knowing What that meant.

00:14:48: he said I Will Apply.

00:14:49: And the truth is that I applied and I entered, it was like this kind of all-of-the-life.

00:14:56: you were told somehow.

00:14:58: You know?

00:14:58: That he would never be able to do with... For a lot people they grow following these kinds of goals for me because no one put seed on them.

00:15:11: so It's quite my first time thinking maybe i can dream higher set the bar a bit higher than people put it for me.

00:15:22: And so again, It was... A story of like oh I don't have money to go through Germany!

00:15:29: I don´t have any way to go to Germany but i say.. ...I will work my whole summer?

00:15:35: ..I would put the money that I had and pack and in that I really had an amazing partner.

00:15:41: My mom said ok you know we are here if something fails But go You need to Go.

00:15:48: You can always come back

00:15:49: if you need.

00:15:51: Yeah, you always have your flight paid to come back!

00:15:55: And so I came to Germany and again...you know..I was almost at the end of my money.

00:16:03: like for three months i spent everything trying to get a job trying go by trying learn everything in that week....and really remember this.

00:16:14: twenty-five euros on my account and I was, you know already eating only like a piece of bread at dinner.

00:16:21: And it was okay...I will have to do the call this weekend!

00:16:25: On that day i received a call from the governor of the Hochschul saying You want the Deutschlandstipendium?

00:16:33: You can come.

00:16:34: we'll transfer your money over the last three months into our accounts.

00:16:38: Wow!

00:16:39: Again..it's just When I was thinking again about giving up.

00:16:46: it came the situation and of course, I'm saying this with a lot of lightness now but Of course at that time.

00:16:53: It's really scary.

00:16:54: You know like being in the country we're twenty one years old.

00:16:57: then not knowing the language all of these Was quite yeah?

00:17:01: It was quite

00:17:03: Yeah Challenging And is a great story.

00:17:08: and what i think is just usually as you said usually people, they do the opposite.

00:17:14: So you started studying.

00:17:16: You probably know a little bit about your instrument.

00:17:18: Your teacher tells you yeah if you want to study in Germany or If he wants to study abroad these are options.

00:17:23: These are the orchestras this so...you go for your goal and you know About those things.

00:17:28: but In your case what I'm picturing?

00:17:31: A girl who starts started And didn't know exactly why?

00:17:35: What how?

00:17:37: And start playing.

00:17:40: I'm not following the goal, but i am kind of escaping.

00:17:44: Like getting out this sick relationship with a teacher and coming to Berlin which is big city But don't know all possibilities that they are in Berlin.

00:17:55: So like you were following your dream Not knowing what your dream was and building it.

00:18:03: Yeah, no And following you're instinct to say okay I want to apply because i want to live here?

00:18:08: and then You got the The scholarship the scholarship and you know and Then you got in a university and that you've got a teacher who built confidence in you.

00:18:21: so What is?

00:18:23: sorry yes

00:18:25: amazing.

00:18:28: There was always something inside of me, like I did ballet.

00:18:31: I did theater and music you know?

00:18:33: Like there is a search for creativity... ...I think that's the only thing very clear to me.

00:18:40: but it has been a good student about everything all of those subjects.

00:18:45: You never have someone who says she will be musician because of this or she will be this, it was like okay.

00:18:52: She can actually anything but there's nothing that you know that she stands for.

00:18:57: let say and I think on these kind of path is very easy also to me.

00:19:05: ok i have put my standards high so all the decisions were a bit always being made in turn of what I was living somehow in the moment.

00:19:20: And there was always like this kind of inner voice that it was, don't give up now you know?

00:19:25: If you stay here maybe you'll see when its coming and i still have it!

00:19:30: It's every time a situation is coming.

00:19:33: just hold on a bit.

00:19:35: You might surprise yourself...and..I think That would happen.

00:19:40: you know Like Coming completely in panic about having to go and be like, no you know this story.

00:19:47: maybe it will show us something.

00:19:52: Talking about the inner voice because I also talked a lot about is how do you talk yourself?

00:19:58: Especially musician artists when you work alone that you compare the whole time... ...that your not enough but always playing for someone else.

00:20:06: get an approval.

00:20:08: But

00:20:08: How

00:20:09: did You Get To Tell Yourself Don't give up.

00:20:13: There is maybe something more.

00:20:15: stay there Stay, they're with your history and not you know.

00:20:19: for me it's like if you lived the things you live.

00:20:22: It's like the voice would be very With much more fear than what he said to yourself.

00:20:29: And I think and in my opinion i don't know this has To do or?

00:20:39: mom had in you when she appointed her in a place and said, She's going to do it.

00:20:47: You know?

00:20:48: And not this thing too... No!

00:20:50: This is new.

00:20:51: I can't play the oboe if i don´t know then they teacher with all their abuse.

00:20:59: so how could you construct your inner voice?

00:21:06: Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with the resilience somehow.

00:21:09: You know?

00:21:10: It's not about oboe and probably we'll get also there.

00:21:15: but when you start seeing life as something that is interwinded in music... Of course, it took me a lot of years and I would say maybe only like five years ago that i start understanding That.

00:21:33: what?

00:21:33: Do is not who.

00:21:35: I am And I think this is also very important you know to separate but of course Like when you have It's like a story all of my abuse or situations For meat was not only on the oval side But I also had in my familiar history and everything You start also understanding that the strength you have is not something related to outside.

00:22:05: It's really something it grows inside of you and even, I don't know...I can say i had a very negative inner voice.

00:22:15: my inner voice was like..you CAN'T do this!

00:22:20: I start connecting the dots very, very early.

00:22:24: I started understanding okay but if this was not meant to be in a way then why would you meet all of these people at that right moment?

00:22:33: Would it be there from the conductor?

00:22:36: even for my partner who is one of the best people to make music with and like... On the right moment, on the verge of giving up we're like no give me your hand and we are doing this together.

00:22:51: You know?

00:22:51: And I think my head start putting these dots very fast together... ...and be like okay you just hold maybe your head is telling a lie!

00:23:05: Also to do this distinction.. Your head of course it's telling from point-of-fear you know, but then I start realizing okay when i don't have fear what are the kind of things that I dream about.

00:23:19: You know?

00:23:19: and now...of course with-with years?

00:23:22: Now I really can do this exercise that is like to take decisions but put the Patricio with fear in a waiting room as I tell my friends.

00:23:32: Like, the patricio's fears she can wait there you know?

00:23:34: She has a ticket and will have her turn.

00:23:37: But now if i take out of their rooms what are they?

00:23:40: decision im going make?

00:23:42: And then i can invite them You know...and she'll tell me maybe things to take care about or that I have to think about, but they don't belong the decision.

00:23:52: This is a great exercise!

00:23:55: When i had this panic or performance anxiety... ...I also did an exercise to leave all these voices and said so you wait outside.. ..i'm closing the door and playing concert for people who came.

00:24:12: So when I leave Outside this.

00:24:14: This is not for you and really to imagine too close the door And it's the same to say, okay Patricia with fear waited outside.

00:24:23: Yeah It so that's all strong and then so So nice.

00:24:27: Well tell me about The moment you decided to step away from music?

00:24:32: So I think this is like from Germany let's see.

00:24:36: um i basically did my master and the truth Is when I entered my master I was feeling great.

00:24:44: You know, it's been very supportive.

00:24:46: but then the situation again changed and unfortunately that relationship with my teacher transformed in a negative way.

00:24:58: How old were you Dan?

00:25:01: So i was twenty-one when i came to Germany.

00:25:04: so yeah... My last year of master was together with Corona what was great.

00:25:12: And yeah, so basically it was like a point where my relationship also with my teacher... ...was not positive.

00:25:22: It was again the moment that I was like okay!

00:25:24: So I escaped this situation you know?

00:25:27: I rebuilt myself and then i come to foreign country.. ..again to basically live the same thing.

00:25:33: why?!

00:25:36: Here I also have really two things to people, like for example one of the old wists from Essie Schoenfunks that took me and was giving me lessons.

00:25:48: Again!

00:25:48: The right people were there at a time when they said don't give up.

00:25:54: And then Covid came... ...and i basically forced my master even without lessons My master, while working three jobs.

00:26:07: And I basically entered a depression right after i did my master.

00:26:12: you know it was everything pushed...my grandpa died one some weeks before my master.

00:26:18: he was like my paternal role in my family and so a lot of things followed from this moment and..I got quite sick After ending my recital and then I started understanding how much trauma was holding all of these years in my relationship with the instrument.

00:26:41: How...I learned just to push forward, you know?

00:26:45: Like oh!

00:26:45: i have to do this thing.

00:26:47: I am privileged..i'm taking a master and a bachelor from family where no one went to university You

00:26:54: know?!

00:26:55: All of those weights were on me back.

00:26:58: So when did it....when played my Master that I finished incredible grade and everything was very beautiful from outside, you know?

00:27:07: But then I had to be there in a point where everything was closed.

00:27:12: I got fired for my jobs... ...I didn't have income.. ..I finished my master, couldn't do auditions.... There is nothing!

00:27:21: It's just me in Germany kind of alone.

00:27:25: And now what is

00:27:29: happening?!

00:27:31: In that time I met Daniela Tesmon, she's teacher in Mines and was like...I would really want to have you here.

00:27:43: Come for a lesson!

00:27:45: And our first conversation.

00:27:47: she told me okay..you know what?

00:27:51: You'd be able to enter the concert exam even if your very young.

00:27:56: but i think that there are alot of things you need to deal with first, like I think you really have to talk with someone.

00:28:03: And she took me really on her arm more than a teacher's friend and she was like okay we are doing this together.

00:28:12: i will recommend some one of us that don't even have money.

00:28:17: so how can i afford therapy or coachings?

00:28:21: Then it again when life is ok there that I was actually able to receive.

00:28:30: Like, I remember it's like about one thousand euros.

00:28:34: and i said myself so...I will pick this money!

00:28:37: I'll put it apart and take all of these money to talk with someone.

00:28:42: you know?

00:28:42: I cannot do this anymore.

00:28:44: And during the year basically I took a foot.

00:28:51: apart from music I start doing coaching, talking with someone about all of these years.

00:28:58: you know... ...of abuse and my relationship in music.

00:29:02: And i started having a very normal job In our warehouse Working with hundreds people With clothes Nothing to do with Music.

00:29:15: But on the end every day was still going to home or either uh, to the university where my partner studied.

00:29:24: To practice.

00:29:25: so after eight hours shift I was still going you know...to practice.

00:29:29: and then i start realizing like..you know?

00:29:31: My relationship with music is not about achieving any goal.

00:29:36: You know it's just about me wanting to do this.

00:29:39: And a lot of things here happened.

00:29:44: Then I entered concert exam after almost one year, and i had to play on the streets.

00:29:52: Again it was a lot of like small situations you know?

00:29:55: Like just earn money just to survive.

00:29:58: but i really have to give this step back while everyone is.

00:30:03: now should be your moment!

00:30:04: Now that you finish a master with twenty three years old... You're so

00:30:08: young!!

00:30:08: You should be winning

00:30:10: auditions!!!

00:30:10: You should do that and then disappear from the map one year, and I was just going out.

00:30:18: So you stepped out but keep practicing.

00:30:21: so in a way what i feel is like again these things that there's this prototype of person who studies and follows make the auditions win their position or started playing And You didn't have when your stepped-out.

00:30:40: Im a failure.

00:30:41: im doing everything wrong.

00:30:44: I have the feeling you adapt to this situation.

00:30:46: The situation was, i need talk with someone... ...i need step out and clear my head but still want practice in contact with my instrument.

00:30:58: So..I don't know how do you see it now?

00:31:00: But its such a powerful thing because for me so requires like clarity when say im going to step-out afterwards being like more powerful in what I do.

00:31:18: And this is exactly what happened, so after you returned let's say to the normal musical lifestyle?

00:31:27: The thing was that i didn't know if it would be my return first.

00:31:31: then of course I did auditions for a concert exam because the teacher Daniela also supported me And the truth is that I didn't enter, even with someone telling me like you can do it.

00:31:48: But i didn't because my confidence everything was not working.

00:31:53: and when I tried for first time then there were a lot of things here which don' t work.

00:32:02: This process was really one-and-a half year let's say.

00:32:06: Then I entered the concert exam still working outside music And of course, it's not bearable to be in such a level of studies and working in the warehouse eight hours per day.

00:32:21: But that was my reality.

00:32:25: I also start seeing.

00:32:27: maybe this is not relationship for me with music.

00:32:30: Maybe i don't want playing Mozart every day or being accountable by standards of the people that I used to admire and that i still admire, but you know maybe my standards are others because if i'm working eight hours per day.

00:32:49: And at the end of the day what i want is like...you know..to have fun playing or play some bar just for fun!

00:32:57: Or to play a jazz switch just for Fun why am i forcing myself?

00:33:02: To go through a path that has been written the moment that I start realizing like, maybe i'm doing the wrong questions.

00:33:14: Maybe this is not about me fitting a system That already exists?

00:33:19: Maybe This Is About Me Creating A System That Exists For Me.

00:33:23: and so even after one year trying to enter concert exam After two three months of being concerted exam...I gave up against all expectations And I think it was probably the most freeing thing I did in my life, because of course i was so scared.

00:33:42: The person that gave me a hand you know?

00:33:44: I was telling her like...I'm sorry You helped to come here but maybe this is not.. I need to discover who am I and yeah!

00:33:55: And I think it's really moment when everything opened up.

00:34:02: I started doing a production with the Schauspiel in Frankfurt.

00:34:05: I did an audition, a random open call that became like one year contract and i entered the Bühne Academy into Nali.

00:34:14: it was also like video that you know like.

00:34:17: this is my first thing about.

00:34:19: let's be creative...I played what I wanted for the audition And then I said oh my god!

00:34:25: I have so much fun with all of these being free from pressure, even playing in the streets to earn money.

00:34:35: We were playing what we wanted.

00:34:38: so all of these small steps start showing me like winning an audition and playing at this great level.

00:34:46: it's amazing but first I need to like what i do two years before me doing the audition for Ensemble Modern Academy and so where I really just rebuilt my whole relationship with music, you know?

00:35:04: And i think when you're alone like have to work especially as freelance.

00:35:11: You are not doing things by book.

00:35:14: There's so much of different types of scarcity, like in a way you feel that everything will end.

00:35:24: You are too late for everything.

00:35:27: but the truth was from these I started actually playing in orchestras again Like putting my level up, I started being invited.

00:35:37: You know doing a lot of things and starting understanding that i didn't have to choose.

00:35:43: you know all this pressure was brought by other people.

00:35:49: it's their lives.

00:35:50: It is the way they live there life.

00:35:53: but...I had to give again a step back.

00:35:56: Now when we say ''i gave up'' Yeah, for the people that don't know concert examine is you studied master in Germany and then You can do another study which?

00:36:06: The name of concert exam.

00:36:07: so your play there.

00:36:08: Is like a master on other two years.

00:36:11: So it's not giving up.

00:36:12: It's like you change.

00:36:14: you changed away And if this change-of way its better for you better for your health or music For everything, well it's not giving up otherwise.

00:36:27: It is like winning everything and I did an episode last week talking about making a career... ...and making music!

00:36:40: Usually we think that we are concentrating on building our careers you know?

00:36:43: Getting into places getting positions or more concerts but.. ..it always depends with someone else who says yes you can't.

00:36:52: So yes, you are in.

00:36:53: Yes You're out.

00:36:55: and when you concentrate I think with the things you really want to do And although these things are for many people near you like crazy Why?

00:37:07: Are doing this should be winning auditions.

00:37:09: your young year should be end When you can connect With This.

00:37:14: Then as you said then you Said i got invited I got invited from orchestras, i started playing more.

00:37:20: I started playing better concerts because... ...I think you connected with this part of you who was telling you hey!

00:37:29: This is the way.

00:37:30: and in every single interview that are making your the third And always the word fun appears to have fun You know?

00:37:44: To look for it..to say okay how can I have fun?

00:37:48: and following, of course all the things you know.

00:37:51: You want to play well, practice or make projects but looking for fun not in a teenager way I just wanted to have fun.

00:38:02: there are so many possibilities which one gives you fun?

00:38:07: And connects.

00:38:10: what do we say?

00:38:11: And I think for me, like and i tell this to a lot of friends.

00:38:16: Like when they told me that you know what?

00:38:18: I'm going through life crisis... ...I don't.

00:38:22: why do these things!

00:38:23: A lot times in the way it is almost fun but also serious.

00:38:29: just do another thing Do something else which doesn't have anything with your instrument because we put a lot pressure on That our career and like that the thing that we love And a way that we do money has to be the same.

00:38:48: And first, that's a lie You know We can't do money with a lot of things.

00:38:51: we can survive with a load of things.

00:38:54: and For me, it's like the thing I established for myself Is if music is not being fun anymore then i earn money doing another thing Yeah...and gives me freedom.

00:39:06: you now.

00:39:07: Because of course, and the world is changing.

00:39:11: Culture has been cut all that.

00:39:13: but to know inside myself music now isn't a thing I give up it's just pressure on me as my breadwinner.

00:39:25: Music doesn't have to win money for itself.

00:39:28: It must be something I appreciate.

00:39:32: Of course, if they can be together super.

00:39:35: But it's because I take the pressure out of that.

00:39:38: actually make music to me my breadwinner you know and every time i forget that normally is when a problem starts.

00:39:46: so always have been rebuilding this like no you.

00:39:49: now I had two arms I have two legs I'm healthy I can't have normal work in I can survive.

00:39:55: So If I have that as basis Why am I scared?

00:39:59: why Am i scared to do the thing that actually gives me fun, you know and That gives me.

00:40:04: You know joy.

00:40:05: And I think a lot of times because The way that we study because the way that he worked We take these with so much seriousness like we think that will be the end Of the world if no If we don't win that job or if we don' t do that thing.

00:40:22: but Actually we are again, you know.

00:40:24: We're connecting these two things that what WE ARE is WHAT WE DO and it's not!

00:40:28: You know?

00:40:29: I am Patricia...I have a lot of goals outside of music,

00:40:32: y'know?!

00:40:33: I'm friend with my friends.. I love to cook.

00:40:35: all this.

00:40:36: things are who I AM.

00:40:39: And then there's the other thing which is what i do- I pick my OVO.

00:40:43: sometimes ,you

00:40:44: know?,

00:40:44: I play it with a RID sometimes I

00:40:46: don't!!

00:40:47: Y'know??

00:40:47: Sometimes I play contemporary music, sometimes I play orchestral music But that doesn't say anything about me.

00:40:54: The only thing it says is I'm curious, you know?

00:40:57: That i am open and... And its just that!

00:41:01: ...and the whole system tries really to make us so fixed in an identity.

00:41:10: If we don´t win on auditions We are losers.

00:41:12: You know if we win a audition We are everything, but the truth is you speak with people and they want auditions.

00:41:19: You know?

00:41:20: And then there like a now what?

00:41:22: because this is a loop!

00:41:25: Because we learn well... They teach us to be just musicians so our musician part has to take care of it.

00:41:36: teachers is to practice, practice and practice.

00:41:38: But then if you noticed okay but I'm a person i have another goals ,i have other wishes music it's what i do in my profession than the field much bigger.

00:41:51: yeah of course there are things that we need to work on And the intention

00:42:04: itself makes that work is way faster.

00:42:08: Because when you're... You know, it's like again joy!

00:42:12: It's a curiosity.

00:42:14: When you are curious about your instrument and why you do what you doing.. ..you actually can get to your goals way faster because you aren't losing time meeting expectations.

00:42:28: you are using the time to be curious about why is this hand here?

00:42:32: Why my body feeling that dead, and when in your system of being curious.

00:42:40: And for me it's really a motto like... When we start seeing creativity as a spectrum as like, oh the trees outside you know?

00:42:50: The sky.

00:42:51: People around me everything around can be creativity You start understanding yourself as part of creativity.

00:42:58: so creativity is not outside your self it's in you.

00:43:01: It just an approach Like

00:43:04: if...it

00:43:05: about being curious.

00:43:06: yeah

00:43:07: but I also think we are always and i think its because this system that were waiting for somebody or something to tell us, go for it now.

00:43:19: It's your turn and we spent... I mean i was thinking yesterday.

00:43:26: We spend a lot of time talking about this freelance thing Or having an orchestra or teaching job.

00:43:34: As a freelancer we are talking alot with people in fixed positions And of course they didn't experience what is to be a freelance.

00:43:45: so all the things I have to say it's like no, no freelance.

00:43:49: No because you need.

00:43:50: You know if you want to have a kid and someone and then okay.

00:43:53: So first we are talking with the wrong person.

00:43:56: Yeah

00:43:57: Or it's good to have did that?

00:43:58: would they have to stay?

00:43:59: Because he liked him?

00:44:00: or your respect them as musicians?

00:44:01: but... ...you Know i have to talk with another freelancer saying hey how are you doing?

00:44:06: How are managing this?

00:44:08: and The second thing Is there's always feeling As you said, everything is new and You don't have to wait for the grid light For anyone.

00:44:18: So if you want To do it then YOU DO IT!

00:44:23: The best way Is like starting And see where Fun is Where creativity is.

00:44:30: How do you feel?

00:44:30: How Do you... The things that you Don't Want to do?

00:44:34: Of course when you have some many years in the career and then music, you start discovering this.

00:44:41: When your a student it's difficult but... This is so important to check.

00:44:50: where is the place that can practice creativity?

00:44:54: And say hey I'm having fun here!

00:44:57: Then see how are you make it work, how can you earn money?

00:45:03: How can we ask for concerts and recordings to meet artists' collaborations.

00:45:11: Completely!

00:45:11: And I think again as you said like... For example if i want to practice orchestral excerpts of course the right person is someone who plays them every day.

00:45:25: Of course You are taking best from this person or the knowledge let's say When we are talking about life, you ask for I don't know motherhood advices to a mom.

00:45:39: We have to understand that the spectrum of things And this is not in a qualitative way, but it's way bigger.

00:45:50: In terms of how diverse it is you know?

00:45:52: You have to do your own taxes... ...you have to know about how to organize money and how to invest yourself.

00:45:59: all these things like creating networks All the tools.

00:46:03: they are not being taught at school.

00:46:05: We don't have any business management kind of master inside music

00:46:11: Absolutely.

00:46:11: And for me, I think and i work also with a lot of teenagers about these topics... ...and give workshops as well.. ..and the first thing that we have to do is like what does mean be a musician?

00:46:27: To just put this question!

00:46:29: You see it's very funny exercise because if you give five minutes to teenagers or eighteen year old musicians they will come maybe with like five words.

00:46:44: But then if you start pushing the thread and be, oh but... If you produce I don't know a techno sound that you go to see in a disco are your musicians?

00:46:54: Ah yeah actually yes!

00:46:56: And do music for elevators or person on television that.

00:47:03: and then you start stretching these words And it starts understanding how many jobs are actually inside of what?

00:47:10: It can be one mastering music You know, but the thing is that a system teaches That's The only way of having success Is to especially I was saying like central Europe.

00:47:23: I think it's very different and diverse in other countries.

00:47:29: But, like for example my own experience in Portugal there's not orchestras enough.

00:47:34: so people think that the success maybe is to have a contract teaching at good conservatory you know?

00:47:40: So it always It's always connected with your reality.

00:47:45: But the thing is like, Your Reality Is also being constructed by your mind of what you think it possible.

00:47:52: So we have to teach creativity in a sense that We Have To Teach Students Like To Imagine Outsides Of The Worlds That Are Being Given To Them Like Okay With These Tools That You Have From Your Instrument from The Knowledge Of History From This And This What reality can you build?

00:48:15: You know, what would be perfect for you.

00:48:17: Like...what do we want to with that?

00:48:19: and then it comes the quite funny answers because most students will not tell them like playing an orchestra every day.

00:48:27: That's a construct!

00:48:29: They are being taught A lot of musicians will tell different things And there is where they start understanding what their talents are, in one way.

00:48:44: And actually how can they do careers with that talent?

00:48:49: Here we start diversifying and of course I admire so many people at playing orchestra...I love to play an orchestra!

00:48:57: I just don't see myself doing it every day because i have another necessity for my needs from the world.

00:49:06: but it is completely okay that someone says like I want a fixed income and i want you know just to play an orchestra.

00:49:13: Like both things are, they're completely OK!

00:49:16: We have to open the window for thoughts of what do we need in music?

00:49:23: You can't even be a politician with the theme of culture...

00:49:31: And I think always these this intention.

00:49:35: So what is your intention?

00:49:37: And then you can see, What Can You Do With

00:49:40: This?,

00:49:40: and as I said...you like playing an orchestra but don't see yourself having this position every single day play the same things and so on.

00:49:49: But Your Intention Is Every Time You Play Try To Connect with Music try to connect with the environment and give best of yourselves.

00:50:02: You could play everything, you played on the streets.

00:50:06: New music ensembles, orchestras... Everything.

00:50:08: and because your intention is to connect yourself with the music no matter which music?

00:50:14: Yes!

00:50:15: And then you started thinking like this Oh I did a project here and here and there.

00:50:21: Then look at your curriculum

00:50:27: Resume

00:50:28: Resume me, and then it's like okay.

00:50:30: Where was I two years ago?

00:50:32: And look now all the things that i did because my My intention is like going to these places where i can connect myself To music and this Is not Like yeah i really need to play in That orchestra Because this orchestra?

00:50:45: No This is no.

00:50:47: i mean you Can search for this but if The intention is just to playing In this orchestra Maybe You get a job as he said Mm-hmm.

00:50:56: and Then

00:50:57: Yeah

00:50:58: Completely,

00:50:59: completely.

00:51:00: And I think again like for me my intention is to have this connection with music and also the best version of myself while doing it you know?

00:51:18: person that I can be for myself, i need to allow myself to experiment.

00:51:24: To fail and try different things... And it works for me!

00:51:28: That doesn't mean you know?

00:51:29: It works.

00:51:29: other people..I have a high level of resistance to fear, let's say of doing decisions that maybe not seem the right ones.

00:51:39: But that doesn't have to work for everyone.

00:51:41: and why it is so important what you are saying but your intention?

00:51:46: Why do we want people while they're doing this?

00:51:52: And then things start coming... towards that goal.

00:51:58: It's not the opposite, you know?

00:52:00: Of course You can search for things That take you there but I find that role way harder because again... ...you are trying to control something that you're Not leaving and all you have To embody The person that you want to be.

00:52:17: And when you do it When you connect with yourself People starts feeling And there is a place for this.

00:52:27: So let's say, There Is A Place For You And Your Things And The Things That You Want To Say Although you think... No!

00:52:35: I always think and also what do you think about yourself?

00:52:40: that you think, no this is too weird for the world.

00:52:42: No!

00:52:43: This is yeah.

00:52:44: I like to play music from my country and combine with lights and videos And say some words and recite a poem.

00:52:56: No...this is what The World Is Needing because when You connect yourself With This which is very inspiring For You then there's A Place There is a place and there's also market.

00:53:10: You can create it, you know?

00:53:13: But nobody will tell us yeah do that.

00:53:16: but if we start then okay I'm connected with myself People are getting this vibe And i am getting more calls I get more concerts Better paid than two or three years ago.

00:53:33: It's a win-win situation.

00:53:34: Completely,

00:53:35: and I think that has really to do with just start small.

00:53:41: it doesn't have to be like for example you are starting You're doing your podcast also probably had the thoughts of oh i have to have that in order To start this.

00:53:52: The truth is no!

00:53:53: You know?

00:53:55: Maybe talking about someone who you admire And say they want to talk.

00:53:59: Let's record these Absolutely.

00:54:03: I hope i'm not oversimplifying, but a lot of times it's just like oh you want to do this concert.

00:54:08: don't wait for the money.

00:54:10: first create the playlist try to understand what are the steps toward that goal and probably when once you start doing it opportunity before doing it will come maybe sometimes in different way than you expected.

00:54:27: No one will give the check in their hand without knowing that they have an idea, but if we share it with another musician or maybe talk about it... Or are you posting a soundcloud track of something?

00:54:42: That thing is leading to your next conversation and I think this exercise and being able to show up as yourself, even if you're afraid of judgment.

00:54:58: Like... To do this exercise.

00:55:00: a lot times I have these fears like when i'm playing in orchestras.

00:55:04: people ask me so what are you doing?

00:55:05: And im not doing auditions!

00:55:08: Im doing this crazy thing in rural Portugal where i play the washing clothes stand And I'm

00:55:20: like, it's

00:55:20: okay.

00:55:21: You know because then they will know.

00:55:22: Like oh you know maybe she is the crazy person that i have to call for this Crazy project but of course It takes a lot Of energy and

00:55:31: courage.

00:55:31: Yes Amazing um ok tell us about This project amessa yeah How how we disabout?

00:55:40: Because now That you Tell me About The time you got in the band after the traumatic relationship with a teacher and people, old people young people playing together in this community.

00:55:55: And bring your music to these now I can relate it with this project but maybe i'm wrong.

00:55:59: But no tell us about this.

00:56:02: Yeah It's quite funny because while I was explaining that I was like oh You know?

00:56:06: I was also having the kind of thought at the same time Like Oh!

00:56:09: Maybe this is connected to that.

00:56:12: So amism is like basically my heart project, let's say.

00:56:18: And so I was three years in the Buna Academy from Tonali in Hamburg and on the last year of this academy we can receive a scholarship for our projects.

00:56:30: So we have to submit our idea of project.

00:56:33: And I think, for me one of the biggest problems that i see in Portuguese culture let's say like... In a way people are connected to cultures is they see classic music as very elitist thing.

00:56:59: So it´s not for everyone.

00:57:01: and so start thinking how can make it more approachable?

00:57:06: How can you make contemporary music not so scary or And I think for me, like experimental music?

00:57:15: in a way it's this kind of inter-world where you can be a bit off everything.

00:57:21: You know?

00:57:21: You can create bridges without taking yourself too serious.

00:57:26: So actually then i start thinking about the Philharmonic bands.

00:57:30: and one thing that is quite funny with the PhilHarmonic band Is when we are children they basically have So while you're a child, basically having education for free from the Philharmonic bands so they get systems where can learn to instrument for free.

00:57:50: While older musicians are being paid to teach young generations and then go on these Jumarillas when there's a cent holiday of like celebrations and the Philharmonic bands play there, so you can earn money by playing in these celebrations.

00:58:13: But one thing that for me always stood in my head is how people open their doors For the Philharmonic bands to enter at seven

00:58:22: a.m.,

00:58:23: eight am, nine am You know?

00:58:25: The whole day for people go eat because we walk while playing like kilometers And people opened just their door say come here you know, the table is served.

00:58:37: And actually this like a logo from Amesa It's an idea of not having fear and just opening door to unknown.

00:58:49: That something that stood for me because my grandma she didn't go school She started working very young when he was six.

00:58:59: so...she doesn't how write But it's something was very like strong while growing up, it's this thing that you know.

00:59:08: she would open always her door to the neighbors.

00:59:11: To come eat even if she will not have for herself should be all these things of inviting through a conversation.

00:59:19: and so I start thinking okay people maybe don't come if i invite them for concert but if i invited him for a conversation at the table... If put food on the table And you know, I just wait for it.

00:59:35: So the idea of Amesa is basically to center the creation on these acts of being together at a table.

00:59:45: so we put small tables in the centre of... ...a small town or village and we just wait people to sit!

00:59:54: In the first edition was really beautiful.

00:59:57: People sat, people ate.

01:00:00: We learned so much that we could not learn in books.

01:00:04: And this was... This is one of the grounds for a project, it's like We don't come to place.

01:00:10: teach people You know?

01:00:11: We came into places where you can learn from them and in process learning from them then give something back with what they learned.

01:00:19: So..we were whole week In this town.

01:00:23: we learned a lot about the culture, things that were not even in books.

01:00:27: We even talked with the president of The City and he was telling us like oh I didn't know about these stories you know how do you know that?

01:00:36: And we're like because And yeah, and we created like workshops.

01:00:41: For example for women with silverware or eating where they could you know redesign their role in society.

01:00:50: it was called a Sunday at the table but on this sunday the woman didn't have to cook.

01:00:55: so how does that sound when women sit at the tables instead of cooking?

01:01:03: Like, to create all of this.

01:01:05: And at the end we did a small concert where... Of course people because they met us through the days.

01:01:10: They came and then we ate altogether.

01:01:13: At the end it was really beautiful Because people were like Wow!

01:01:17: I could understand that.

01:01:18: You know when you do sound with That thing or With that thing?

01:01:22: Like..I couldn't understand.

01:01:24: We are talking about these traditions Or talk about these.

01:01:28: It's such A beautiful experience.

01:01:31: Now We already applied for more money, so hopefully the project will continue.

01:01:39: I wish you all the best!

01:01:40: Thank you.

01:01:44: The idea of music that we go to play and teach and bring but actually it's the other way around.

01:01:55: So we are going learn from your culture.

01:02:00: It is like a sharing I give you, You Give Me and it's a great point for the project.

01:02:09: It is amazing!

01:02:10: Congratulations!

01:02:11: What was your idea?

01:02:13: Your artistic director... Amazing!

01:02:18: What nice chat!

01:02:19: Thankyou so much!

01:02:21: I loved it!

01:02:22: Thank you being here thank you talking to people And seeing all of things i'm talking about in episodes alone about being a musician, been in person.

01:02:33: Connecting with music connecting with career and You know this feeling that That we are alone somehow thinking this.

01:02:42: And then you talk to people Talked to colleagues and then you realize no We're all experienced the same things but There may be not so many rooms to talk about it.

01:02:55: It's great, thank you very much for being here.

01:02:58: Yeah

01:02:58: and I thank you for opening the room.

01:03:01: You know like it is amazing to have an open room as well.

01:03:05: Thank

01:03:05: you!

01:03:06: I will leave Patricia's web page and La Mesa... I'll live on the show.

01:03:13: notes For people who want to take a look And contact if they want To talk with or say thanks for the podcast.

01:03:20: Thanks for chat.

01:03:22: Thank you so much,

01:03:23: Patricia.

01:03:24: Yeah thank you and thank everyone for listening!

01:03:27: And feel free to do any questions.

01:03:30: I always like to talk about them.

01:03:36: If something in this episode resonated with you, I invite you to take a look at mental notes.

01:03:41: The link is the description.

01:03:43: there You'll find texts videos and short resources that can help you explore these ideas further And most importantly spaced to talk about them.

01:03:52: Thank you for taking the time to listen to me.

01:03:55: see you next time.

01:03:56: Take care of yourself.